Genuine F class experience, what is that for you?

[SkyDining]

Well, there aren't many other Middle Eastern airlines with world class ambitions and the pocketbook to match. For example, I see that there are adverts like this floating round.

Indeed!
I know the person very well who created this position!

The bigger issue is making a true business case and the commitment to service, money is unfortunatly not everything to deliver the best out there.
Experience and a solid caring customer base is.

While onboard crew like this are a great asset to the overall experience, there is still a lot of room left to revolutionise the F class experience as we know it, especially in companies like SQ!

[Kiwi]

The good old times when First was truely First are long gone - and unfortunately, I am too young to tell from experience...

Second, the times where First was highly profitable are long over as well. Airlines try to "optimize" the product while customers would love to have a more perfect product.

I disagree with both these statements unless you qualify they are in respect of some airlines.

[Kiwi]

Some of the things mentioned in this thread already happen in some airlines' F product - eg sky chef, limo transfers even on awards and upgrades.

[acey]

As somebody probably said before, even the average pax in Y will have better meals at home in a more enjoyable environment than they would ever in inflight F - no meal I ever had in SQ J could compare with a decent zi char take away in S'pore. .

yupe fully agree with that. I had Ipoh Hor fun at the F lounge at Changi before...I think the S$3-$4 version at Kopithiam taste much better !!

[SMK77]

I disagree with both these statements unless you qualify they are in respect of some airlines.

They are universally true for all airlines including SQ.

a) Most visible on American carriers, second on European one and thirdly on Asian ones - food & beverage being the most visible

b) One F seat is eating up two seats in C - if you can sell two seats in C more expensive than the F one, F is hardly profitable.

[bryan_sq]

in my young flying life ive never even been on a plane with 1st class

[Kiwi]

b) One F seat is eating up two seats in C - if you can sell two seats in C more expensive than the F one, F is hardly profitable.

It is complex, but here are a couple of points to consider.

If you replace 1 F seat with 2 C seats then you need twice as many premium passengers. If you have the same number of premium passengers then C fare needs to be as expensive as F fare.

There are flow on effects of not having F. Many corporates do not want their staff flying in the top cabin. Getting rid of F can mean they stop flying in C. Similarly individuals who want premium travel and prepared to upgrade themselves (by paying fare difference or using miles) may buy economy instead of business fares.

[SMK77]

It is complex, but here are a couple of points to consider.

If you replace 1 F seat with 2 C seats then you need twice as many premium passengers. If you have the same number of premium passengers then C fare needs to be as expensive as F fare.

There are flow on effects of not having F. Many corporates do not want their staff flying in the top cabin. Getting rid of F can mean they stop flying in C. Similarly individuals who want premium travel and prepared to upgrade themselves (by paying fare difference or using miles) may buy economy instead of business fares.

Complex it is, I agree.

a) The number of premium seats that needs to be sold does not double. 8 F and 36 C becomes 52 C seats. Total premium seats goes from 44 to 52. That's an increase of 18%.

b) Corporates don't care whether there is F or not - if the policy says C then it is C. The employees flying actually mind - because having the opportunity to upgrade matters. SQ is experiencing this on SIN-LHR with Qantas - while the A380 has no F (no F as in Suites are not accessible through any upgrade/redemption), QF offers F.

[Kiwi]

a) You were the one saying 1F = 2C seats.
b) Some corporates will change a C seating policy to a Y one in the absence of F. I've seen this in the NZ market (where F is now almost non-existant).

[SMK77]

a) You were the one saying 1F = 2C seats.
b) Some corporates will change a C seating policy to a Y one in the absence of F. I've seen this in the NZ market (where F is now almost non-existant).

You are hopeless, Kiwi.

1F = 2C cannot be doubling the premium seats if there are already C seats. I am not aware of any airline in Asia flying with F and Y only.

"Business Class" has the name for a reason and SQ changed it to that for a reason as well. Sensitivity is around "First Class" where access is usually very very limited for corporates.

[SkyDining]

In a way SQ already operates in a "Business-First" layout on the 777-200ER 9V-SV* fleet with the Spacebed.
In an environment where filling up the premium cabins with company contracts is the way FWD, these layouts do make sense for an airline as they will find it hard to fill the F cabin on these destinations anyway. Some airlines (like KLM or major US carriers) work completely around this idea where real premium traffic besides company contracts is very rare these days.

Luckely SQ still attracts genuine premium traffic.

[Kiwi]

You are hopeless, Kiwi.

1F = 2C cannot be doubling the premium seats if there are already C seats. I am not aware of any airline in Asia flying with F and Y only.

"Business Class" has the name for a reason and SQ changed it to that for a reason as well. Sensitivity is around "First Class" where access is usually very very limited for corporates.

If you have say 12 F seats for sale and replace with 24 C seats then you have twice as many to sell on a marginal basis (ignoring the current C cabin). Looking at the figures on marginal basis because the revenue from these extra seats needs to exceed the revenue they would have got in F. (This is simplification as ignores marginal cost of C hopefully lower than F but relatively small effect compared with revenue impacts.)

If the removal of F is because not selling enough F then have to sell more C (because fares are lower) to make it worthwhile. And that is without the effect of dilution on C sales I mentioned earlier.

[VC10 Boy]

It's actually the crew that matters more to me than anything else.

LH F is a dire seat. Mind you saying that I have slept in it very well. 4 flights with them this year and one of them gave me my best F experience ever. Fun, friendly, crew who went out of their way to make you feel welcome.

LX 2 F flights and a much better product than LH, great food, but again the crew made all the difference.

BA dire F experience from a crew who couldn't care less, filthy seat, and a bus on arrival with every other passenger squashed in like sardines in a tin.

SQ 1 F and 3 J. Liked F a lot, and despite what many say it felt more informal and less regimented than J. Of the four flights though my favourite was in J where I was one of 3 in the cabin heading up to BKK. Perfect crew who went way out of their way to ensure I had a great flight.

TG 1 F and 3 J - Great crew on all sectors, liked both products.

So from all of this, the best sector for me was FRA MEX on LH, the F with the worst product, and yet the nicest flight because of the crew.

[hon2]

Regarding the tailored F experience, on the basis of a German car, I must say that I hate this concept. In Germany, when buying a car, you are, to a certain extent, forced to buy extras. For a Porsche Cayenne one has to buy a normal steering wheel since the standard for the car is a small circular shape, not worthy of being called a steering wheel. I prefer the Asian style, even though the cars are not up to the quality, like a Lexus LS 600hL where almost everything is included, and you just decide about colors, and that.
The thought that you have to pay extra for everything you consume is horrifying, since in many instances First class is about spoiling yourself. I like fine dining, and to take French restaurants as an example it is a wonderful experience and you somehow feel like they are all just serving you to make you happy. I know that this is not the case, but I would actually prefer they just charge your account, while not having to pay at the end of the meal which somehow ends this dream.
If you were to order the things for a F flight, and everything costs more, you are likely to not take things you regard as unnecessary. While unnecessary these are the small touches that make you enjoy the experience even more. A glass of good fine cognac right before you land or caviar for breakfast. All these things would cost extra. That is what defines a low cost carrier in my opinion. True luxury, which first class is aiming to deliver I reckon, is to anticipate the needs but to also go well above them and simply make you enjoy everything. As an example I once needed a gift for a person, who likes whiskey. Since the duty free catalog didn't offer anything appropriate, the FA simply gave me a bottle of Blue Label in a nice package, coming from the First Class beverages. It's these small things, making you feel special and feeling that every possible task is undertaken to make you happy.

[allmotor_2000]

To put my 'ideal experience' into context, I am taking the best experiences I have had in an F product in the past and what I would like to experience. I have flown long-haul F on SQ, MH, UA, LH, BA, AA, CX, KE.

An exclusive experience - 12 seats is way too much. In 90% of my flights, actual F bookings are 3-4. Rest are occupied by pilots and in the US-airlines its flight crew and 'friends'. If its FIRST class, then keep it FIRST class! Allocate 6 seats and don't cheapen the experience. I don't want to give up my second helping of caviar for a flight attendant who got bumped into F.

Tailor the service per customer - Some of us like to chit-chat... others want to work, sleep or just relax. SQ does a fairly decent job of this... other airlines are very mechanical even in F. This should be the inflight supervisor or pursor's job to 'size-up' the passenger right away.

Don't scrimp - Alluding to what hon2 wrote above... the F premium is usually 2x of biz class, so what does the airline lose by giving a free bottle of Dom as a parting gift or a momento? Especially if you are a repeat passenger, its all the more important to keep you as a paying customer.

Comfort - I like the private suite concept ala A380. Option to be very private or an open feel. Another level of exclusivity at 30000 feet. Good pyjamas, amenities, toilets (shower?) etc. are not essentials, but add to the complete experience. Not having to wait for the restroom is something that makes a difference to me. On some flights, I have had to wait 5-10 mins and it was for a FA!?!

Food - At $10-$15K type airfare, I want 5-star restaurant dining. Made-to-order bfast is a good touch. Usually the first meal is the big one - and more often than none, its within 1-2 hours of take-off. They don't have to freeze everything. Cook it the hour before the plane takes off and a simple heating should still keep it just as good as a restaurant. Presentation is another factor. Part of enjoying a meal is appreciating what it looks like before you eat it!

Pre/Post-arrival - When its a connecting flight, the best experience is to be escorted to the lounge, skip lines etc. When its arrival time, escorted to the baggage claim and include porter service. Similar to departure - limo service etc. goes a long way. What's a $200 limo going to do to the bottom-line for an airline?!