Qantas A380 and 747-400 emergency landings at Changi

[Megatop]

Deleted

[Javaman]

This report here is a little confusing......

"Singapore Airlines said the engines on the A380s would remain the Rolls-Royce Trent 900, with a minor variation - the same type involved in the Qantas incident"

Does that mean they're moving to the same 972B model as used by QF?
Or they're just replacing they're own 970's with another set of 970's?
seems illogical to replace engines that should have plenty of life left in them without a reason, or just downright insane to swap to a model that reportedly has an issue.......

[globetrekker84]

This report here is a little confusing......

"Singapore Airlines said the engines on the A380s would remain the Rolls-Royce Trent 900, with a minor variation - the same type involved in the Qantas incident"

Does that mean they're moving to the same 972B model as used by QF?
Or they're just replacing they're own 970's with another set of 970's?
seems illogical to replace engines that should have plenty of life left in them without a reason, or just downright insane to swap to a model that reportedly has an issue.......

SQ uses the 970B variant (70klbf of thrust). I think what they intended to say was that they intend to stick to the 970B for now with no intent to switch to the EA engine. Just a poor choice of diction.

[cscs1956]

SQ uses the 970B variant (70klbf of thrust). I think what they intended to say was that they intend to stick to the 970B for now with no intent to switch to the EA engine. Just a poor choice of diction.

Anyone can comment is there a major design different between 970B and 972 used by QF. Or is just some tunning and modification between the 2?

Looks like oil leak problem now applies to both model although it has not been identify as a cause of QF problem.
Another question is this problem identify by batch (ie by manufacturing date) or purely just due to materails used as commented in QF?

Reason: If this is due to materials used. Then it is likely other engines will required replacement sooner? If this is manufacturing defect and not due to design, then it may be only affecting certain batch by date?

[boing]

Anyone can comment is there a major design different between 970B and 972 used by QF. Or is just some tunning and modification between the 2?

As I mentioned earlier, 970B and 972 are physically the same engines with no difference between them except for their max thrust which is determined by a data entry plug. It is possible to switch between this two ratings without even taking the engine off the aircraft.

[Nick C]

The preliminary EASA report points to an oil fire in the HP/IP structure cavity which could have caused the failure of the Intermediate Pressure Turbine (IPT) Disc.

http://www.atsb.gov.au/newsroom/news...singapore.aspx

ATSB preliminary report is expected to be out in 3 weeks.

As I mentioned earlier, 970B and 972 are physically the same engines with no difference between them except for their max thrust which is determined by a data entry plug. It is possible to switch between this two ratings without even taking the engine off the aircraft.

FADEC to be exact

[boing]

FADEC to be exact

The DEP sets the engine mark and its takeoff thrust and is plugged to the FADEC and thus it's DEP to be exact.

[zilchster]

Here's a report on the extent of the damage of the Qantas A380

Qantas 'scarebus' QF32 was a flying wreck

Qantas engine blast

The engine of the Qantas Airbus A380 plane after an emergency landing at Singapore last Thursday Source: AFP

* Damage shows how close fllight was to disaster
* Engine shrapnel tore through wing, fuel tanks
* Jet looked liked battle-scarred World War II bomber

A QANTAS superjumbo was a flying wreck after an engine exploded shooting chunks of metal through fuel tanks and flight control systems.

Last week's mid-air emergency off Singapore also badly damaged a wing, which may have to be replaced.

The Herald Sun can reveal the full list of damage as Airbus A380 was nursed back to Singapore on three engines.

When it touched down the fuel systems were failing, the forward spar supporting the left wing had been holed and one of the jet's two hydraulic systems was knocked out and totally drained of fluid.

Sources compared flight QF32 to the Memphis Belle, the World War II bomber that struggled back to England from Germany on its final mission and became the subject of an award-winning 1990s Hollywood movie by the same name.

Richard Woodward, vice-president of the International Air Pilots' Federation, told the Herald Sun yesterday that the lesson from the near disaster was the value of an experienced flight crew.

Start of sidebar. Skip to end of sidebar.
Related Coverage

* Airbus A380s: 'Out for the summer'

End of sidebar. Return to start of sidebar.

"There was a wealth of experience in the cockpit, even the lowest ranked officer on board had thousands of hours of experience in his former role as a military flying instructor," said Capt Woodward, himself an A380 pilot on leave from Qantas.

As another senior pilot said: "It is bad enough for an engine to explode in mid-air let alone lose so many secondary systems".

Investigators found shrapnel damage to the flaps, a huge hole in the upper surface of the left wing and a generator that was not working.

The crew could not shutdown the No. 1 engine using the fire switch.

As a result the engine's fire extinguishers could not be deployed.

Captain Richard de Crespigny, first officer Matt Hicks and Mark Johnson, the second officer, could not jettison the volume of fuel required for a safe emergency landing.

With more than 80 tonnes of highly volatile jet kerosene still in the 11 tanks -- two of which were leaking - they made an overweight and high speed approach to Changi Airport.

Without full hydraulics the spoilers - the hinged flaps on the front of the wings - could not be fully deployed to slow the jet.

The crew also had to rely on gravity for the undercarriage to drop and lock into place.

On landing they had no anti-skid brakes and could rely on only one engine for reverse thrust - needing all of the 4km runway at Changi to bring the jet to a stop.

The three crew have been interviewed by Australian investigators and cleared to return to duties.

Industry sources said the damage will almost certainly put the airline's flagship jet - the Nancy Bird-Walton - out of service for months.

Investigators found that an oil fire may have caused the engine to explode.

Details of the stricken jet's problems were revealed yesterday in an emergency directive by the European Aviation Safety Authority.

The authority made it mandatory for airlines with the now suspect Rolls-Royce Trent 900 engines to make checks for excess oil.

If not detected, excess oil can cause a fire and ultimately result in "uncontained" engine failure, with potential damage to the aeroplane and to people or property on the ground.

Qantas made it clear it will keep its six superjumbos grounded indefinitely and has rearranged flight schedules using substitute aircraft.

"The specific checks mandated by the directive were already being carried out by Qantas in conjunction with Rolls-Royce," it said.

"Qantas's A380 aircraft will not return to service until there is complete certainty that the fleet can operate safely."

WHAT WENT WRONG ON QF32

1 Massive fuel leak in the left mid fuel tank (there are 11 tanks, including in the horizontal stabiliser on the tail)

2 Massive fuel leak in the left inner fuel tank

3 A hole on the flap fairing big enough to climb through

4 The aft gallery in the fuel system failed, preventing many fuel transfer functions

5 Problem jettisoning fuel

6 Massive hole in the upper wing surface

7 Partial failure of leading edge slats

8 Partial failure of speed brakes/ground spoilers

9 Shrapnel damage to the flaps

10 Total loss of all hydraulic fluid in one of the jet's two systems

11 Manual extension of landing gear

12 Loss of one generator and associated systems

13 Loss of brake anti-skid system

14 No.1 engine could not be shut down in the usual way after landing because of major damage to systems

15 No.1 engine could not be shut down using the fire switch, which meant fire extinguishers would not work on that engine

16 ECAM (electronic centralised aircraft monitor) warnings about the major fuel imbalance (because of fuel leaks on left side) could not be fixed with cross-feeding

17 Fuel was trapped in the trim tank (in the tail)creating a balance problem for landing

18 Left wing forward spar penetrated by debris

Source: http://www.news.com.au/travel/news/q...-1225952363505

[zilchster]

In another report, QF A380 ops will be postponed. Apparently the latest timetable for the next few weeks or so won't see the 380 operating. 747s will replace the 380s, while 330s will stand in for some routes, while some 330 routes will be replaced by 767s.

[cscs1956]

As I mentioned earlier, 970B and 972 are physically the same engines with no difference between them except for their max thrust which is determined by a data entry plug. It is possible to switch between this two ratings without even taking the engine off the aircraft.

This means if there is any materials defect or design problem on 972. 970B has a high chance of getting it ? Unless it has been confirm that the parts used cannot take the additional thrust of 972 (which R/R has confirm this is not the case).

So SQ claim their A380 engine is different model is in theory correct but technically they are actually the same engine?

[cscs1956]

Here's a report on the extent of the damage of the Qantas A380

Qantas 'scarebus' QF32 was a flying wreck

Qantas engine blast

The engine of the Qantas Airbus A380 plane after an emergency landing at Singapore last Thursday Source: AFP

* Damage shows how close fllight was to disaster
* Engine shrapnel tore through wing, fuel tanks
* Jet looked liked battle-scarred World War II bomber

A QANTAS superjumbo was a flying wreck after an engine exploded shooting chunks of metal through fuel tanks and flight control systems.

Last week's mid-air emergency off Singapore also badly damaged a wing, which may have to be replaced.

The Herald Sun can reveal the full list of damage as Airbus A380 was nursed back to Singapore on three engines.

When it touched down the fuel systems were failing, the forward spar supporting the left wing had been holed and one of the jet's two hydraulic systems was knocked out and totally drained of fluid.

Sources compared flight QF32 to the Memphis Belle, the World War II bomber that struggled back to England from Germany on its final mission and became the subject of an award-winning 1990s Hollywood movie by the same name.

Richard Woodward, vice-president of the International Air Pilots' Federation, told the Herald Sun yesterday that the lesson from the near disaster was the value of an experienced flight crew.

Start of sidebar. Skip to end of sidebar.
Related Coverage

* Airbus A380s: 'Out for the summer'

End of sidebar. Return to start of sidebar.

"There was a wealth of experience in the cockpit, even the lowest ranked officer on board had thousands of hours of experience in his former role as a military flying instructor," said Capt Woodward, himself an A380 pilot on leave from Qantas.

As another senior pilot said: "It is bad enough for an engine to explode in mid-air let alone lose so many secondary systems".

Investigators found shrapnel damage to the flaps, a huge hole in the upper surface of the left wing and a generator that was not working.

The crew could not shutdown the No. 1 engine using the fire switch.

As a result the engine's fire extinguishers could not be deployed.

Captain Richard de Crespigny, first officer Matt Hicks and Mark Johnson, the second officer, could not jettison the volume of fuel required for a safe emergency landing.

With more than 80 tonnes of highly volatile jet kerosene still in the 11 tanks -- two of which were leaking - they made an overweight and high speed approach to Changi Airport.

Without full hydraulics the spoilers - the hinged flaps on the front of the wings - could not be fully deployed to slow the jet.

The crew also had to rely on gravity for the undercarriage to drop and lock into place.

On landing they had no anti-skid brakes and could rely on only one engine for reverse thrust - needing all of the 4km runway at Changi to bring the jet to a stop.

The three crew have been interviewed by Australian investigators and cleared to return to duties.

Industry sources said the damage will almost certainly put the airline's flagship jet - the Nancy Bird-Walton - out of service for months.

Investigators found that an oil fire may have caused the engine to explode.

Details of the stricken jet's problems were revealed yesterday in an emergency directive by the European Aviation Safety Authority.

The authority made it mandatory for airlines with the now suspect Rolls-Royce Trent 900 engines to make checks for excess oil.

If not detected, excess oil can cause a fire and ultimately result in "uncontained" engine failure, with potential damage to the aeroplane and to people or property on the ground.

Qantas made it clear it will keep its six superjumbos grounded indefinitely and has rearranged flight schedules using substitute aircraft.

"The specific checks mandated by the directive were already being carried out by Qantas in conjunction with Rolls-Royce," it said.

"Qantas's A380 aircraft will not return to service until there is complete certainty that the fleet can operate safely."

WHAT WENT WRONG ON QF32

1 Massive fuel leak in the left mid fuel tank (there are 11 tanks, including in the horizontal stabiliser on the tail)

2 Massive fuel leak in the left inner fuel tank

3 A hole on the flap fairing big enough to climb through

4 The aft gallery in the fuel system failed, preventing many fuel transfer functions

5 Problem jettisoning fuel

6 Massive hole in the upper wing surface

7 Partial failure of leading edge slats

8 Partial failure of speed brakes/ground spoilers

9 Shrapnel damage to the flaps

10 Total loss of all hydraulic fluid in one of the jet's two systems

11 Manual extension of landing gear

12 Loss of one generator and associated systems

13 Loss of brake anti-skid system

14 No.1 engine could not be shut down in the usual way after landing because of major damage to systems

15 No.1 engine could not be shut down using the fire switch, which meant fire extinguishers would not work on that engine

16 ECAM (electronic centralised aircraft monitor) warnings about the major fuel imbalance (because of fuel leaks on left side) could not be fixed with cross-feeding

17 Fuel was trapped in the trim tank (in the tail)creating a balance problem for landing

18 Left wing forward spar penetrated by debris

Source: http://www.news.com.au/travel/news/q...-1225952363505

Nice summary of the report. Looks like A380 need more design change after this event.

[Nick C]

The DEP sets the engine mark and its takeoff thrust and is plugged to the FADEC and thus it's DEP to be exact.

shouldn't it be DEP -> EEC -> FADEC?

[boing]

shouldn't it be DEP -> EEC -> FADEC?

EEC and DEP are part of the FADEC. The EEC and DEP are in the engine itself and FADEC is usually in the MEC in the aircrafts belly. I can PM u the chart if u want.

[globetrekker84]

Nice summary of the report. Looks like A380 need more design change after this event.

Wouldn't all of these failures be sufficiently addressed if the engine can contain all debris during its self-disintegration? From what I've read, only a section of the cowling is reinforced for a fan blade loss. The remainder is not, as seen from the pictures. Adding more redundancies would just make the aircraft that much heavier.

The question that I still have is: did the pilots apply the thrust reverser on the damaged engine? From the burn marks in the picture and the smoke coming out during the video of the landing, it looks like it did. But then again, that would not make sense to apply that on a damaged engine. Or did they only apply the TR on the Number 3 engine and use the brakes?

[Aulia Harun]

http://www.jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=6979701

Just thought I would share with you guys what it looks like for a 747-400 to carry a spare engine. Photograph was taken on Nov. 6, so it must have been carrying it for its sister ship over in SIN, the second QF engine failure.