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  • #61
    Originally posted by SQ228 View Post
    Yeah, I know that. I guess they don't want to enter into any extra leases and then have them end up on their hands with nothing to do with them when the A350s or 787s replace them, whereas the old 772s can just hang around until the first replacements roll in then be removed.

    It's just when you look at it aside from how leases work financially, there's a five year old A330 leaving the fleet as a new identical plane joins it. The leasing process in general is too focused on numbers in columns on theoretical paper and ignores the incredible environmental waste it creates.
    The new ones joining the fleet are replacing the ones leaving. Surely thats better than keeping older ones going?

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    • #62
      Originally posted by SQ228 View Post
      It's just when you look at it aside from how leases work financially, there's a five year old A330 leaving the fleet as a new identical plane joins it. The leasing process in general is too focused on numbers in columns on theoretical paper and ignores the incredible environmental waste it creates.
      What other rational way is there to look at it? How does it create environmental waste? I think you might be better to stick to commenting on things you understand.

      Comment


      • #63
        Perhaps some background on the A330 leases will help us understand what's happening here.

        The first batch of 19 A330s were leased by Airbus to SQ at very attractive rates to compensate for the delays in the A380 program. They were meant to be stop-gaps until the A350s and B787s arrived. The leases started in 2009 and 2010, at the trough of the global financial crisis, so I can imagine the discounts SQ got were very deep indeed. Now Airbus did not hold on to aircraft as lessor (its strategy is to minimize using its own balance sheet); instead it sold them to other lessors (like ILFC), presumably at prices that reflect the discounted leases offered to SQ.

        As the leases end, the lessors understandably would want the aircraft back as they would not like them to stay with SQ at the deeply discounted rates; similarly, SQ would have no interest to renew the leases at market rates, especially since Airbus has offered another set of 15 A330s (presumably also at discounted rates) to tide it over until the A350s arrive. There are options to renew the leases, but it would require an agreement on lease rates.

        So what we will likely see is quite a few of the 19 original A330s leaving the fleet in 2015, 2016 and 2017. They will be replaced by the new set of A330s in 2015 and A350s beginning 2016. That also explains why SQ has to hold on to the 772/3s; the A350s are not going to arrive early enough. Their retirement - except for those with leases expiring - will begin in earnest only when more of the original A330s have left the fleet and more A350s arrive; so really in 2017-18 by my estimates. Also worth noting here that the 777s on lease may not necessarily be the oldest ones: according to the planespotters site, the 772ER on lease is SVH and the 773 on lease is SYK. No indication on which of the 772s are leased.

        What doesn't add up in the analysis above how the regional routes will be served as the A330s and 772/3s exit the fleet, especially as SQ has announced that the A350s will be configured with long-haul products. Perhaps it will be good news, with a re-definition of what is regional. Maybe we will see only routes below 5 hours (or even less) being served with regional configuration aircraft.
        Last edited by 259850; 18 May 2015, 11:02 AM.

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        • #64
          Thank for the insight 259850

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          • #65
            Originally posted by Wan1dap View Post
            What other rational way is there to look at it? How does it create environmental waste? I think you might be better to stick to commenting on things you understand.
            I was proposing there was another way to look at it than just on a balance sheet, which the following poster has explained exactly how it works on balance sheets. I do not see balance sheets as the only way of looking at a situation. Potentially consigning a 5 year old plane to being parked in a desert and replacing it with an identical product can be seen as waste because the original product is still perfectly functional. The resources needed to manufacture the new plane have to come from somewhere.

            While our political or vocational vantage points may well differ, we are both entitled to our opinion on how we see it in an open forum. Attempting to belittle or insult my intelligence doesn't add to your argument. I haven't done that to you so I'd appreciate the same respect in the future. Thanks!

            Comment


            • #66
              Singapore Airlines Fleet & Orders (Updated 18 May 2015)

              SINGAPORE AIRLINES FLEET & ORDERS (UPDATED 18 MAY 2015)

              Airbus A330-300

              In Service: 30
              On Order: 3
              EIS: 2015
              Seating: 30J/255Y (Regional J, 2006 Y)

              - 9V-STA
              - 9V-STB
              - 9V-STC
              - 9V-STD
              - 9V-STE
              - 9V-STF
              - 9V-STG
              - 9V-STH
              - 9V-STI
              - 9V-STK
              - 9V-STL
              - 9V-STM
              - 9V-STN
              - 9V-STO
              - 9V-STP
              - 9V-STQ
              - 9V-STR
              - 9V-STS
              - 9V-STT
              - 9V-STU
              - 9V-STV
              - 9V-STW
              - 9V-STY
              - 9V-STZ
              - 9V-SSA
              - 9V-SSB
              - 9V-SSC
              - 9V-SSD
              - 9V-SSE
              - 9V-SSF

              Airbus A350-900

              On Order: 70
              EIS: 2016 - 2017
              Seating: TBA

              Airbus A380-800

              In Service: 19
              On Order: 5
              EIS: 2017-2018
              Seating 1: 12R/60J/399Y (2006 R, 2006 J, 2006 Y)

              - 9V-SKA
              - 9V-SKB
              - 9V-SKC
              - 9V-SKD
              - 9V-SKE
              - 9V-SKF
              - 9V-SKG
              - 9V-SKH
              - 9V-SKI
              - 9V-SKJ
              - 9V-SKK

              Seating 2: 12R/86J/311Y (2006 R, 2006 J, 2006 Y)

              - 9V-SKL
              - 9V-SKM
              - 9V-SKN
              - 9V-SKP
              - 9V-SKQ
              - 9V-SKR
              - 9V-SKS
              - 9V-SKT

              Boeing 777-200

              In Service: 11
              Seating 1: 38J/228Y (Regional J, Refurbed Y)

              - 9V-SQJ
              - 9V-SQK
              - 9V-SQL
              - 9V-SQM
              - 9V-SQN
              - 9V-SRM
              - 9V-SRO
              - 9V-SRP
              - 9V-SRQ

              Seating 2: 30J/293Y (Ultimo J, 1997 Y)

              - 9V-SRJ
              - 9V-SRL

              Boeing 777-200ER

              In Service: 12
              Seating 1: 30J/255Y (Spacebed J, 1997 Y)

              - 9V-SVF
              - 9V-SVH
              - 9V-SVO

              Seating 2: 26J/245Y (2006 J, Refurbed Y)

              - 9V-SVB
              - 9V-SVC
              - 9V-SVE
              - 9V-SVG
              - 9V-SVI
              - 9V-SVJ
              - 9V-SVL
              - 9V-SVM
              - 9V-SVN

              Boeing 777-300

              In Service: 7
              Seating: 8F/50J/226Y (2006 F, Regional J, Refurbed Y)

              - 9V-SYF
              - 9V-SYG
              - 9V-SYH
              - 9V-SYI
              - 9V-SYJ
              - 9V-SYK
              - 9V-SYL

              Boeing 777-300ER

              In Service: 25
              On Order: 2
              EIS: 2015
              Seating 1: 8F/42J/228Y (2006 F, 2006 J, 2006 Y)

              - 9V-SWA
              - 9V-SWB
              - 9V-SWD
              - 9V-SWE
              - 9V-SWF
              - 9V-SWG
              - 9V-SWH
              - 9V-SWI
              - 9V-SWK
              - 9V-SWL
              - 9V-SWM
              - 9V-SWN
              - 9V-SWO
              - 9V-SWP
              - 9V-SWQ
              - 9V-SWR
              - 9V-SWS
              - 9V-SWT

              Seating 2: 8F/42J/228Y (2013 F, 2013 J, 2013 Y)

              - 9V-SWU
              - 9V-SWV
              - 9V-SWW
              - 9V-SWY
              - 9V-SWZ
              - 9V-SNA

              Seating 3: 4F/48J/232Y (2013 F, 2013 J, 2013 Y)

              - 9V-SWJ

              Boeing 787-10

              On Order: 30
              EIS: 2018 - 2019
              Seating: TBA

              Total

              In Service: 104
              On Order: 110
              Last edited by FSJZ; 18 May 2015, 10:59 PM. Reason: Updated seating plan for 77WT

              Comment


              • #67
                anybody can advice when will the updated timetablebe out?

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by SQ228 View Post
                  Potentially consigning a 5 year old plane to being parked in a desert and replacing it with an identical product can be seen as waste because the original product is still perfectly functional. The resources needed to manufacture the new plane have to come from somewhere.
                  If you ever had to replace your five-year old car, would you send it straight to the junkyard for disposal?

                  I'm not an expert on the airline industry, but I think it's safe to say that the likelihood of the replaced A330s going to waste is very, very, very small.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Thanks, FSJZ, for a very useful post...amazing how quickly SQ went from a fleet where the 777 was the backbone for short-mid haul routes, to one where the A330 is the workhorse for shorter routes (and even for longer routes like SIN to Australia). I for one look forward to A330 flights as the hard product in Y there is as good as any, except for the rare 77WNs, and the regional J product is perfectly good as well.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by SQ228 View Post
                      I was proposing there was another way to look at it than just on a balance sheet, which the following poster has explained exactly how it works on balance sheets. I do not see balance sheets as the only way of looking at a situation. Potentially consigning a 5 year old plane to being parked in a desert and replacing it with an identical product can be seen as waste because the original product is still perfectly functional. The resources needed to manufacture the new plane have to come from somewhere.

                      While our political or vocational vantage points may well differ, we are both entitled to our opinion on how we see it in an open forum. Attempting to belittle or insult my intelligence doesn't add to your argument. I haven't done that to you so I'd appreciate the same respect in the future. Thanks!
                      I asked about rational ways to consider the leases. You have yet to come up with one. When you do, I'm sure it will command the appropriate level of respect.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Wan1dap View Post
                        I asked about rational ways to consider the leases. You have yet to come up with one. When you do, I'm sure it will command the appropriate level of respect.
                        The probability that a 5 year old A330 run by a reputable airline, being scrapped is very low. They will probably return to their lessors, which will find other clients that are interested in leasing A330s but cannot afford a new one. Most likely new carriers that have just started out and don't have much capital.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by FSJZ View Post
                          The probability that a 5 year old A330 run by a reputable airline, being scrapped is very low. They will probably return to their lessors, which will find other clients that are interested in leasing A330s but cannot afford a new one. Most likely new carriers that have just started out and don't have much capital.
                          Hopefully they will to go an airline other than Transaero, who operate the ex SQ 744's with the interiors tastefully remodelled.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by FSJZ View Post
                            The probability that a 5 year old A330 run by a reputable airline, being scrapped is very low. They will probably return to their lessors, which will find other clients that are interested in leasing A330s but cannot afford a new one. Most likely new carriers that have just started out and don't have much capital.
                            I wouldn't be surprised if these went to DL. They are trying to get rid of the 747 fleet and don't have the AC to do so. They are well known for buying used AC.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by yflyer View Post
                              Hopefully they will to go an airline other than Transaero, who operate the ex SQ 744's with the interiors tastefully remodelled.
                              On the one hand, they clearly didn't even try to hide who the former operator was. On the other hand, I'm glad they didn't, as those pics brought back memories for me of SkySuites and Spacebeds.

                              As for the A330s, I highly doubt they'd be scrapped anytime soon as they still have a fair amount of flying life left.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Nice read up on the fleet. Good job guys. What do you think SQ will do in relation to the 777x's? Really want to see the 777-9x in SQ colors!

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