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Masterthread - 787 Problems

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  • #46
    Elon Musk: Boeing 787 battery fundamentally unsafe
    By: ZACH ROSENBERG WASHINGTON DC 3 hours ago

    The lithium ion batteries installed on the Boeing 787 are inherently unsafe, says Elon Musk, founder of SpaceX and owner of electric car maker Tesla.

    "Unfortunately, the pack architecture supplied to Boeing is inherently unsafe," writes Musk in an email to Flightglobal.

    "Large cells without enough space between them to isolate against the cell-to-cell thermal domino effect means it is simply a matter of time before there are more incidents of this nature," he adds.

    Both Boeing and Tesla use batteries fueled by lithium cobalt oxide, which is among the most energy-dense and flammable chemistries of lithium-ion batteries on the market. While Boeing elected to use a battery with a grouping of eight large cells, Tesla's batteries contain thousands of smaller cells that are independently separated to prevent fire in a single cell from harming the surrounding ones.

    "Moreover, when thermal runaway occurs with a big cell, a proportionately larger amount of energy is released and it is very difficult to prevent that energy from then heating up the neighboring cells and causing a domino effect that results in the entire pack catching fire," says Musk.

    http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...unsafe-381627/

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    • #47
      Originally posted by SQtraveller View Post
      I saw an interesting 1 hour Bloomberg report on the Dreamliner this weekend, made before its current troubles. It was explaining (which I'm sure has been gone through all over the web, including this forum) how delayed it was, and how dependent they were on outsourcing. I knew they had outsourced a lot, but didn't realise how much - they were talking about 70-80%.

      I've been reading this morning, that when Cessna suffered a lithium-ion battery fire, they switched over to nickel-cadmium or lead-acid batteries. Story is here As you say boing it would require some substantial redesign and retesting as the whole system is created with the Li-I in mind.

      Related to that, link here there are some reports the 787 might be grounded until 2014!! Can't believe it would be grounded for that long!

      Boeing mentioned that they would still be producing 787s - it must be wreaking havoc with their inventory.... Having so many planes just sitting on the tarmac.
      Boeing realized outsourcing was a big mistake when some of the components received from the vendors were of poor quality and out of proportion, thereby negating the benefits of cost savings and faster production. In contrast, it contributed to the delay and Boeing ended up buying some companies to have quality assurance.

      And Boeing were not the only party to outsource their responsibilities in the B787 fiasco.

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      • #48
        Many a times, decisions on outsourcing may not be made entirely on efficiency, cost and quality considerations but may be politically motivated and part of a quid pro quo deal - for example Japanese airlines promising to buy the planes in return for Japanese manufacturers (e.g. Mitsubishi) supplying some parts.

        SEE STORY

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        • #49
          Originally posted by CarbonMan View Post
          Many a times, decisions on outsourcing may not be made entirely on efficiency, cost and quality considerations but may be politically motivated and part of a quid pro quo deal - for example Japanese airlines promising to buy the planes in return for Japanese manufacturers (e.g. Mitsubishi) supplying some parts.

          That's not a secret.

          What seems to have been kept a secret is the airlines' previous problems with batteries throughout the past year, with some only lasting a week. It seems only a matter of time before something went wrong.

          As you mention Mitsubishi, they were up there in the news years ago for covering up problems in their cars. I'm not saying (lawyers take note) this is the case this time but did the Japanese airlines not say anything for fear of damaging local suppliers? It is a valid question since from Toyota to nuclear power plants and from Sony to Olympus we have seen this come up time and time again.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by scooby5 View Post
            That's not a secret.
            If I know it, everybody does!

            Another confirmation from Bloomberg that the nail is quite deep into the wood.

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            • #51
              http://www.straitstimes.com/breaking...ption-20130212

              More bad news for Boeing ?

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              • #52
                LOT grounds 787s until October

                post deleted
                Last edited by SQtraveller; 20 August 2017, 04:56 AM.

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                • #53
                  post deleted
                  Last edited by SQtraveller; 20 August 2017, 04:56 AM.

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                  • #54
                    Do you guys think it will get to the point where airlines start canceling orders?

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                    • #55
                      WASHINGTON (AFP) - US aerospace giant Boeing is set to propose on Friday repairs to the battery problems in its grounded 787 Dreamliner jets that could have them fly again within two months, The New York Times said.

                      The Times, citing industry and federal officials, said Thursday Boeing has narrowed down the ways in which the lithium-ion batteries could fail, concluding that they would be safe to use after making changes such as adding insulation between the battery cells.

                      ST Report

                      Bloomberg Report

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                      • #56
                        post deleted
                        Last edited by SQtraveller; 20 August 2017, 04:53 AM.

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by SQtraveller View Post
                          Reports that United will not be flying 787s until 5 June (except for a Denver-Tokyo route from 12 May)
                          If I read the report correctly, the June 5 date is not firm at all. And the May 12 flight is on the assumption that clearance is given by then.

                          “We don’t have visibility on when the 787 will be restored” to service, David said today in an interview. “We make changes in our published schedule to give us the utmost operating flexibility and reliability, and to let our customers know what aircraft to expect when flying us.”
                          I can't imagine the amount of dandruff and blood shed on the floor by now - at Boeing and the affected airlines.

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                          • #58
                            post deleted
                            Last edited by SQtraveller; 20 August 2017, 04:54 AM.

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                            • #59
                              2nd 787 flight test delayed

                              post deleted
                              Last edited by SQtraveller; 20 August 2017, 04:54 AM.

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                              • #60
                                FAA Approves Boeing 787 Battery System Design Changes

                                http://www.faa.gov/news/press_releas...m?newsId=14554

                                The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) today took the next step in returning the Boeing 787 to flight by approving Boeing's design for modifications to the 787 battery system. The changes are designed to address risks at the battery cell level, the battery level and the aircraft level.

                                Next week, the FAA will issue instructions to operators for making changes to the aircraft and will publish in the Federal Register the final directive that will allow the 787 to return to service with the battery system modifications. The directive will take effect upon publication. The FAA will require airlines that operate the 787 to install containment and venting systems for the main and auxiliary system batteries, and to replace the batteries and their chargers with modified components.


                                “Safety of the traveling public is our number one priority. These changes to the 787 battery will ensure the safety of the aircraft and its passengers,” said Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood.

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