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  • Advice on living/career in London

    So my trip to London last week turned out to be fruitful and I got a job offer there for when I graduate from my MBA in mid-2008. I have a vague idea of the life in London and considering that there are many on SQTalk living there, I thought I'd get your advice on living there.

    The job is an operations rotational program working directly for the COO of a retail and commercial bank based in London, consisting of a 6 month assignment in London, followed by two one-year rotations in other countries where the bank operates (Western Europe, Africa, Middle East, South Asia), after which returning to London for a permanent role there is a strong possibility. The London office is in Canary Wharf and the initial compensation is:
    Base £65K
    Signon bonus £10K
    Year 1 performance bonus of 0-50%
    100% private healthcare
    30 days of vacation + public and bank holidays
    Relocation assistance (£5K + 30 days temporary accomodation for each of the rotations)

    That compares favorably with my other job offer in operations strategy consulting in Silicon Valley where the initial compensation is:
    Base $130K base,
    Signon bonus $25K
    Year 1 performance bonus of 10-20%
    15 days of vacation + public holidays
    100% HMO or PPO healthcare

    As far as the nature of the work goes, I would be happy doing either role, though the consulting role is what I would prefer simply for the variety. I have to make a decision on this by the end of this month.

    1. How far does a base salary of £65K take you in London? Is it comparable to a base salary of $130K in the Bay Area taking into account taxes and living expenses? I don't want to consider bonuses since they can be so variable. I also have about $100K in student loans to pay back which I can spread over 5-15 years.

    2. The consulting job puts me on track to make partner in 6-8 years and I have a good idea how compensation increases during that time. However, I have no idea how compensation increases over time in Banking in London. Anyone?

    3. For various reasons, buying property is not what I want to do right now, so I'll be renting wherever I go. In the Bay Area, I'd probably be living in the Palo Alto area and driving. In London, I assume I'd have to live somewhere along the tube/DLR since driving would not make sense. I know what rents are in the Bay Area and I've been pointed to www.gumtree.com for renting/flatsharing in London - is that the best site? As a 29-year old single heterosexual male who enjoys pubbing/nightlife on weekends, what would be the places and budget to look at living in London?

    5. Travel would probably be weekly for the consulting role and less frequent for the banking role. Domestic US flying (blech) vs. intra-Europe/intra-Africa? SFO vs LHR? Random thoughts?

    6. Does BA status match? They are the preferred airline for the bank and all the members of the board of directors are Premiers.

    7. Weather. No contest.

    What else do I need to consider? Feel free to share random thoughts in addition to career advice and advice related to living in London. I am getting career advice from elsewhere as well, but I'm asking you guys because I think getting insights from people in all walks of life will probably help me make a better decision. I have no qualms stating salaries on the internet since post-MBA salaries are pretty public anyway.

    Fire away...

  • #2
    I cannot help but hearty congratulations and kudos on your successful immediate job prospects. I am sure you deserve it.

    Though regarding number 7, I think the weather just gets worse and worse.

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    • #3
      Here are my initial thoughts; I'll see whether more come to mind overnight.

      1 and 3. Taxes will take away about 40% off your gross income, so your base will shrink to about £39,000 of disposable income. Let's begin with accommodation, since that's your biggest fixed cost. You can get accommodation more cheaply in East London (closer to work), but if you're a single male, you probably will want to live closer to Central London (so you won't have to fret about cabs late in the evening, or a Tube full of drunk passengers [you being the exception, of course ]). Canary Wharf has a very North American feel to it (tall buildings, wide open spaces) but it seems sooo quiet in the evenings.

      Flats in WC1, WC2, W1 (the central areas of Zone 1*) went for around £1400-1700 a month (depending on your location and space requirements) about two years ago when I was looking. SW3 flats are also nice but more expensive; less spacious; and further away from work. (You'll learn to speak in postal codes and zones when you're contemplating London real estate.)

      *Note: my friends labeled me a Zone 1 snob , so my viewpoint may be (I doubt it) biased. Honestly, I could also live in Zone 2.

      The nice thing about London is that you, as the renter, don't have to pay the broker directly (unlike the vultures in NYC ). So get in touch with real estate brokers in the area you're interested in living in, and get them to show you the properties they have available. Note, of course, that they'll use that timeless tactic of showing you the less desirable properties first so that you can be softened up to accept a property that was just above your price point.

      How far will the rest of your disposable income go? London is pricey (it makes Manhattan seem like a bargain), but it's manageable. Alcohol, however, is cheaper than in Singapore. In case you're in the mood to be fabulous-looking, European luxury goods are mostly cheaper here than in Singapore (and even cheaper if you hop on the Eurostar to Paris), and the new season's selections come out sooner.

      I can't help you compare with Bay Area standards of living, because I don't know what the taxes and rental rates are like in Palo Alto. Compared to NYC, though, taxes in London are lower; rents are more affordable (more space for the buck); but everyday expenses are higher. Finding a really good, but reasonably priced, meal is much easier in NYC, for example. And let's not talk about meals in Paris compared to London.

      In any case, don't underestimate the impact of your bonus. It will create a windfall that will be much appreciated. My banker friends tell me so, even as they gallantly try not to notice the envy-induced, greenish tint that my skin acquires after their revelation.

      5. Travel: well, you'll have to learn how to cope with LHR, or lose your marbles. If your job will allow you to travel in domestic First Class in the US, you'll get much better seating than intra-Europe, where the greatest benefits you'll have as a Business Class passenger are (1) seat blocking (if on *A airlines) or the A/C seats on BA; (2) fast track; and maybe (3) more substantial meals.

      (By the way, why is there no #4? )

      6. No, BA doesn't status match.

      7. Weather: I concede on the yearly average, but a clear sunny English summer day is heart-achingly beautiful. (Much rarer than nice days in the Bay area, but still ... )



      One more thing: the biggest advantage, over anywhere in the US, of living in London is that you'll have a cosmopolitan and multinational experience that US living can't match. You'll be a short hop from some of the most exciting cities, historical sites, and sceneries in the world.

      Another thing: weekend hops to Asia (e.g., SIN) really are doable from LHR.

      Finally, you'll be around for the impromptu LON Do's.

      Hope that was helpful for now. Let me know if you have follow-up questions.

      OK, one last thing:

      CONGRATULATIONS, Savage25 !!!



      It's a success that's well-deserved.
      Last edited by jjpb3; 26 November 2007, 06:14 AM. Reason: additional thoughts
      ‘Lean into the sharp points’

      Comment


      • #4
        First, congratulations, Savage25!

        This thread on TOF seems very relevant to your circumstances:

        http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=649807

        What will my life in London be on £74,000?

        There is an opportunity at my firm to move from New York City to London.
        [...]
        A little more background, I am a 26 year old, single, male, who grew-up in New York and has traveled extensively. My compensation would be £74,000 plus a bonus (however that is variable and I do not want to spend my bonus through the year).

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        • #5
          Congrats on the opportunity...
          Just in general... My whole perspective on career moves like this is that unless there is a real glaring reason not to move somewhere new & exciting (I mean REALLY glaring) then I go ... I'd hate to get to an older age, look back & think what may have been. My grandfather used to tell me - If you have to regret something, always regret the things you did and not thing things you failed to do.
          Sorry I can't help you with the specifics on London since I haven't lived there for 8 years or so, but I loved it for the 3 years I spent there.

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          • #6
            Just to add my 2p to jjpb3's excellent points:

            Originally posted by jjpb3 View Post
            *Note: my friends labeled me a Zone 1 snob , so my viewpoint may be (I doubt it) biased. Honestly, I could also live in Zone 2.
            There are people who live outside of central London! I live in zone 5 and it takes me about an hour door to door to get to work (including a 10-minute walk to the tube station and about 5 minutes at the other end). A black cab home in the evening takes about 45 minutes and costs about £50. My annual tube zones 1-5 season ticket (unlimited travel) costs £1,592.

            I don't stay out late (i.e. past midnight) in London too often so taking that into account, the money I save on renting/paying the mortgage more than covers the cost of an occasional cab home or even a 1-night stay in a hotel but of course YMMV.

            Originally posted by jjpb3 View Post
            One more thing: the biggest advantage, over anywhere in the US, of living in London is that you'll have a cosmopolitan and multinational experience that US living can't match. You'll be a short hop from some of the most exciting cities, historical sites, and sceneries in the world.
            Definitely! LHR - despite all its problems - does have an enviable network of connections to lots of countries around Europe and the world. There are 20+ countries within at most a few hours flying time from London - all easily reached for a weekend trip.

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            • #7
              Congratulations Savage25.

              Personally I would base your decision on the job, what you will be happest with as I'm sure both of these offers are going to expect you to put in a lot of extra hours. Personally I took job in Bangkok because I wanted to live there but really wasn't happy because the job was rubbish. Now I'm living in Jerusalem which would not be in my top 1000 places to live but I'm much happier as the job is really interesting.

              I'm sure the money would go much further in states than it will in London. However your offer is for approx double the UK average salary so you will be by no means having to scrape by.

              Comment


              • #8
                Thanks for all your comments, folks. Especially jjpb3's detailed reply. As a poor starving grad student, its good to be a position to make a choice between job offers, but its hard making a decision.

                jjpb3, #4 got folded into #3 and subsequently forgotten.

                Based on my brief time visiting London, I think I would be a Zone 1 or Zone 2 person. I like to be within 20 minutes of commuting time to work and play. I noticed that alcohol is cheaper too

                And living costs for the Bay Area seem comparable to NYC, so I think your comparison is useful.

                I'm trying to learn about the postcodes....is there a good postcode map that overlays a regular map? Something like this but covering multiple postcodes and most of central London?



                Originally posted by Snaffled View Post
                My whole perspective on career moves like this is that unless there is a real glaring reason not to move somewhere new & exciting (I mean REALLY glaring) then I go ... I'd hate to get to an older age, look back & think what may have been.
                I agree wholeheartedly...I've been living away from "home" since the age of 15 so moving to somewhere new and exciting is what I've been doing for a while now. I definitely want to live and work in London at some point (for all the reasons that jjpb3 mentioned, but I'm trying to decide whether I want some work experience in the US at this point in my career.

                jhm, thanks for pointing me to that section of FT. Forgot it existed and will have to go though the threads there tonight.

                Are black cabs different from regular London cabs?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Lobster View Post
                  Congratulations Savage25.

                  Personally I would base your decision on the job, what you will be happest with as I'm sure both of these offers are going to expect you to put in a lot of extra hours. Personally I took job in Bangkok because I wanted to live there but really wasn't happy because the job was rubbish. Now I'm living in Jerusalem which would not be in my top 1000 places to live but I'm much happier as the job is really interesting.

                  I'm sure the money would go much further in states than it will in London. However your offer is for approx double the UK average salary so you will be by no means having to scrape by.
                  Thanks! Money isn't the most important factor for me because both offers are high enough to do better than scrape by. Each one has its good points though - one for the variety of work and the other for the variety of places to live in during the rotations.

                  I think I would be happy with either job, and from talking with people in both companies, I think both have a good work-life balance. I like the idea of the extra vacation in the London job though....makes for more long weekend getaways

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Savage25 View Post
                    Are black cabs different from regular London cabs?
                    People refer to a black cab to distinguish it from a (licensed) minicab - apart from the difference in the vehicle itself, the drivers of the former take the "Knowledge" (a test of thousands of routes and points within central Lodnon - it takes a few years to learn and pass) and the former cost more.

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                    • #11
                      Congratulations Savage25.

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                      • #12
                        Congratulations!

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                        • #13
                          Well Done Savage25

                          I did spend 2years in the UK in the 90s. Was in Birmingham rather than London but the odd trips there so weekend left me feeling that London is rather expensive to live in. I'll never forget paying GBP3 for an ice-kacang that had NO atap-chee (Atap-chee is the flesh from the young seeds of the mangrove plant Nypa fruticans. It is usually soaked in sugar syrup)

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                          • #14
                            Congratulations Savage25! Nice going

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                            • #15
                              Congrats, Savage25!
                              All opinions shared are my own, and are not necessarily those of my employer or any other organisation of which I'm affiliated to.

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