Singapore to accelerate Immigration to support Economic

[SQflyergirl]

A Club Platinum, which is once again available to anyone with a pulse.

I disagree. They got rid of the pulse requirement this year.

[kapitan]

I can't move my hands in an MRT during peak hours without the risk of molesting or assaulting someone. And that is, if I can board one. And here they are talking of bringing even more ! Prices of public housing have far outpaced the earnings of the middle class. And mind you, they are getting smaller as well. Sights of elderly working as cleaners and scavenging for cans and cardboards to sell in dustbins have become common. At an age where one should be enjoying their retirement, they are forced to work as it's simply too expensive. These elderly could easily have thousands of dollars of their own hard earned cash locked up. Yet they are not allowed access ! Local male citizens have to serve 2 years compulsory NS where they are paid less than $500 to sacrifice their family and even life. And you have foreigners taking over jobs, leaving these NSFs with leftover jobs with low starting pay when they exit National Service to enter the workforce. And they are wondering why Singaporeans are not reproducing enough ? It's because couples would be in their 30s when they are financially ready to start a family. If one can find gf/bf outside of the busy, unforgiving work schedule.

Most of the problems SG is facing can be attributed to the influx of foreigners over the past 5-6 years. It was voiced out during the last GE. And these (expletive) in white have not learnt. I believe Singapore is one of the only countries in the world where one can go from a Social Visa stamp on the passport to a full fledged citizens in slightly 2.5 years !

I can go on and on. Just want to state that I'm not xenophobic, it's just the present Govt policy of letting ant Tom,Dick and Harry into SG that's making my blood boil ! Can't wait for 2016 ! Ok, deep breath..... beach.... waves crashing..... leaves bristling....

Peace Out.

I am known as the most foul mouth in my office, and I will not be so civil like you....... my posts on this matter is not fit for posting unless this is a x rated forum.

[LionCity]

I am known as the most foul mouth in my office, and I will not be so civil like you....... my posts on this matter is not fit for posting unless this is a x rated forum.

Ha ha ha. What can we expect from an old sea dog liked you that has too much salt in your brains. But do not be worried about it as yours is becoming the normal type of speech in Sinkieland these days.....after the toilet paper came out....I have been hearing alot of KNN, T L, D L, SIA L, Lau L, Lan L, Tua L, C L, K L and K B L from normally placid SIN People.

Is our civilisation declining or due to global warming that seawater is going into the freshwater system of Sinkieland? Hence the folks of Sinkieland drinking too much salt water and becoming liked the Kapitan?

[cscs1956]

It will be good if the "blue" team can set a example of using ZERO FT to run their town councle.

[9V-JKL]

It will be good if the "blue" team can set a example of using ZERO FT to run their town councle.

Why ?

[LionCity]

It will be good if the "blue" team can set a example of using ZERO FT to run their town councle.

I did not know that you liked me is a Star War fan i.e. the Jedi Councle or the Sith Councle. The blue laser is for the Jedi and the red laser is for the Sith. May the Force be with you.

[concept|infinit]

I am not opposed to immigration but they need to let it be organic. Why is it always a target number of people? It's akin to a farmer deciding how many sheep he'd like to purchase. Why don't they leave the doors open and let it grow. It'll be slower but this way you allow the nation to develop.

That's the problem with Singapore. The state is effecient but it is strong- too strong. And when a state is too strong it shadows the nation. And that's why Singapore as a nation is weak IMO. Almost all my friends have little sense of belonging here. Unlike the Indonesians. No matter how far they travel or how affluent they are, Indonesia is always home for them.

Another point on letting things be organic, do they still have that stupid ethnic quotas? Had they not imposed it, Singapore could have been as cosmopolitan as London but it isn't now. We're starting to look like a satellite state of China if anything...

[SQGamespeed]

I am not opposed to immigration but they need to let it be organic. Why is it always a target number of people? It's akin to a farmer deciding how many sheep he'd like to purchase. Why don't they leave the doors open and let it grow. It'll be slower but this way you allow the nation to develop.

So by "organic" you mean there should be no quota? And a country can develop through immigration IF (a big if in most of the world) the new arrivals become productive contributors to the nation.

That's the problem with Singapore. The state is effecient but it is strong- too strong. And when a state is too strong it shadows the nation. And that's why Singapore as a nation is weak IMO. Almost all my friends have little sense of belonging here. Unlike the Indonesians. No matter how far they travel or how affluent they are, Indonesia is always home for them.

Another point on letting things be organic, do they still have that stupid ethnic quotas? Had they not imposed it, Singapore could have been as cosmopolitan as London but it isn't now. We're starting to look like a satellite state of China if anything...

You lost me on "too strong = weak", could you elaborate more on that?

Yes, being cosmopolitan is good in many ways, but if it becomes like Dubai, where 80%+ of people are non-Emiratis, there can be issues like loss of cultural identity (not that there is clear evidence of that in Dubai).

[concept|infinit]

So by "organic" you mean there should be no quota? And a country can develop through immigration IF (a big if in most of the world) the new arrivals become productive contributors to the nation.



You lost me on "too strong = weak", could you elaborate more on that?

Yes, being cosmopolitan is good in many ways, but if it becomes like Dubai, where 80%+ of people are non-Emiratis, there can be issues like loss of cultural identity (not that there is clear evidence of that in Dubai).

Maybe the "organic"analogy I described wasn't the best but what I mean is for immigration to be slower, paced and if there are there should not be ethnic quotas. I find it strange to suddenly have a paper on how the population should be increased by x number of times.

Not many Singaporeans know this and I'm not sure it is still enforced now but it definitely was in the 80s-90s. LKY said that for Singapore to work it has to be 70% ethnically Chinese. They kept the ethnic ratios in place by attracting immigrants from the PRC and Taiwan. But instead the Chinese nationals have become the significant other. The government doesn't seem to realise that the locals are something of a Singaporean race (in a cultural, not ethnic sense) and the local ethnic Chinese do not identify with the Chinese nationals.

If the immigrants were came from a bigger variety of other countries (like London), the PRCs wouldn't be the significant other all the time. Remember the fury over the Ferrari crash incident in Bugis? Most of the press attention and what people posted on online forums were centred around the driver being a PRC national. Another incident was the anti-China grafitti in NTU two years back. So I'd argue that the ethnic quotas is actually more of a destabilizing force. If there are to be quotas it would be healthier if they instead limited the percentage of the new immigrants from the more populous countries- quotas to ensure the immgirants are spread out across a number of different countries.

State= the government, the institutions
Nation= the people
IMO, Singapore is a strong state but a relatively weak nation.

[boing]

Maybe the "organic"analogy I described wasn't the best but what I mean is for immigration to be slower, paced and if there are there should not be ethnic quotas. I find it strange to suddenly have a paper on how the population should be increased by x number of times.

Not many Singaporeans know this and I'm not sure it is still enforced now but it definitely was in the 80s-90s. LKY said that for Singapore to work it has to be 70% ethnically Chinese. They kept the ethnic ratios in place by attracting immigrants from the PRC and Taiwan. But instead the Chinese nationals have become the significant other. The government doesn't seem to realise that the locals are something of a Singaporean race (in a cultural, not ethnic sense) and the local ethnic Chinese do not identify with the Chinese nationals.

If the immigrants were came from a bigger variety of other countries (like London), the PRCs wouldn't be the significant other all the time. Remember the fury over the Ferrari crash incident in Bugis? Most of the press attention and what people posted on online forums were centred around the driver being a PRC national. Another incident was the anti-China grafitti in NTU two years back. So I'd argue that the ethnic quotas is actually more of a destabilizing force. If there are to be quotas it would be healthier if they instead limited the percentage of the new immigrants from the more populous countries- quotas to ensure the immgirants are spread out across a number of different countries.

State= the government, the institutions
Nation= the people
IMO, Singapore is a strong state but a relatively weak nation.

If anything should be done to the state of immigration in Singapore, it should be lowered. Instead, they plan to continue letting in more. The argument that immigrants are required to supplement the cost of the increasing senior population in the demographics holds little water as Singapore is a self declared non-welfare state. What welfare is there for the seniors ? Or anyone for that matter. Would they be scavenging for cans and cardboards if welfare was available ?

The earlier argument is also self defeating as many of these pass holders bring their entire family from their countries. This includes their parents and in-laws, further burdening the already tight healthcare sector. Was this factored in the Stupid Paper ?

Going onto quotas, it is a popular rumor that the planners are working hard to keep the present racial balance.(where the Chinese are the majority) One of the reasons, among many, is security. That is why PRCs are found almost everywhere. Heck, they are even working in Little India restaurants ! And that is how I got to find out that MOM only issues work pass for services sector solely for Malaysians and PRCs. Although it could have changed as I'm seeing an increase in Filipinos in these sectors.

But the problem, as concept|infinit has pointed out, is that they have nothing in common with the local Chinese except for their skin colour and ancestry. There has been so much tension between the locals and the foreigners that it caused the ruling party the lowest win in years in the last GE. Singapore as a nation is diluting by the day. I can just keep on bitching.... To all Singaporeans in this forum, please remember this event in 3 years time.

Peace Out !

[CarbonMan]

With the advantage of 20/20 hindsight, one can see that policies started by LKY were the cause of the lack of true-blue Singaporeans today. His "2-is-enough" policy was so ingrained in the populace that the generation after that is still "practicing" it. Of course I'm not saying that the policy is the only cause of the low replacement rate but I believe LKY's social engineering in policies like the graduate-mother preference policy were drivers in the current state of things. GCT's policy shift to "3-or-more-if-you-can afford-it" in the 90's was way too late and way to little to make a radical change. Somehow, there's a feeling that no one wants to face the wrath of LKY to overturn his policies - and admit that they were wrong.

There are only two ways to remedy the current situation and not falter the economy: 1) increase the population and/or 2) increase productivity. The current Govt has chosen to push both these buttons.

In the past, Singapore has managed to attract a huge number and a wide spectrum of workers from "traditional sources of labour" i.e. Malaysia (take a look at SQ's crew), where because of the similarity of cultures have not caused much discontent among Singaporeans. However, due to better economic growth, this supply was dwindled (much higher expectation for pay, etc) or at least have not been able to keep up with Singapore's demand for labour. They tried to bring in a large number of HK'ers in '94-'97 but the bulk have gone back (Singapore too boring?). So we are left with the Mainland Chinese, India Indians, Bangladeshis, Filipinos and Indonesians who see migration here as step upwards to improve their lives.

I think we need to accept the fact that Singapore is a small country, and because it is, it needs to be cosmopolitan. Its only resource is whats between our ears. In order that we do not become "fat and lazy", we need to bring in fresh-blood, more driven people to continue to build the economy. The diverse talent will also help Singapore export its expertise.

The Govt also needs to look at ways to encourage the young to get married and have kids. Apart from the small challenged minority, I think most young people have no problems meeting partners. The problem of not reproducing probably boils down to cost (housing, keeping a family) and careers. HDB housing needs to be kept low but yet attractive so that couples don't spend their entire savings trying to upgrade to private condos, and left with nothing to build a family.

Lastly, I understand that Singapore average 12,000 abortions over the last few years. That's more than a quarter of all births. I don't think this number includes miscarriages. If only we can encourage adoptions instead of abortions!

As for productivity, there's still much that can be done but there's a limit in some industries as to how much more it can improve. Take for instance SQT's raison d'etre; perhaps we can order our food onscreen, and hence reduce a crew or two or make check-in and immigration completely automated but how many of us would be comfortable with having pilot-less planes in the short term. The era of intelligent machines building machines will not be too far off, and that may help improve productivity further, but it will not help with the here and now.

Singapore does not have a luxury of being an insular and xenophobic country. All our resources lie between our ears, and therefore the more of that the better. And something that we need to remember - the bulk of Singaporeans are descendants of emigrants to Singapore, if not immigrants themselves. The question is therefore not whether it is right to have such a policy but what the right number is.

My humble 2-cents.

[LionCity]

A Singaporean Dilemma

Interesting comments Carbonman.

A dilemma for some of us. We have worked hard and many of us sacrified in many ways. Back in the 60s, 70s and 80s many of us including my family had our land properties mandatory acquired way below market prices by the authorities. It was painful for many of us having a way of life taken away and moving to a small flat that often cost more than the compensation. But many of us accepted it painfully that it was for nation building. Not easy to be cooped up in a tiny flat, no familiar faces, no walks in the garden, loss in livelihood some plus the large loss in networth...particularly tough for the seniors...some did not survive long after moving to a flat. The state coffers made billions out of land sales from cheaply acquired land.

For the guys, we had done our National Service commitment. Failing which was jail time. Two to 2.5 years of National Service. It meant a loss in income and two years in career profile behind those who did not have to serve. Yes, we did it grudingly in our heart but supported in our heads. Now with a population of 6.9 M, I can't help asking who are we protecting anymore? Some enlightened new citizens and PRs were ok in sending their sons to Army. But some did not let their son be PRs and others simply have their sons denounced PR just before National Service enlistment.

We were generally docile, pragmatic and supportive of the Govt. In return, the Govt had delivered in many areas including housing for a growing population, infrastructure development, attracting foreign investments, generally corruption free. Many Ministers and Civil Servants had gone through the difficult times had worked hard to make life for everyone better. It was tough love if I could best describe it between the government and the people.

Fast Forward to recent years. Fertility rate has dropped but population grew to more than 5.3 Million and it seems we will have another 100K more per year. Issues Housing, transport, a less driven population and social disharmony are starting to rear its ugly head.

Housing - Price of public housing have perhaps risen 16 -20 folds but income perhaps 4 folds for the average guy. Much of it paid from our pension fund managed by the govt. As a Singaporean, I wondered why cost to get a new flat is so high when the land was acquired next to nothing?

Transport - To get a certificate entitling you to buy a car, it cost close to $100 K even for a small Toyota Corolla and that excludes the actual sales price of car. I agreed that this system helps to improve traffic situation otherwise we will be more liked Jakarta or Bangkok. But it pained me that most likely I will not be able to afford the convenience of a car in humid Singapore. With increased population the situation can only get worse. Can you imagine that Porsche was at one time the 11th best selling car brand in SIN?

Retirement funds - With the baby bloomers aging, are our government investment agencies getting adequate returns to pay back our funds deposited monthly with the investment? I hope that our retirement fund is doing well and that the increase in population is not used to pop up the shortfall. I am just really not sure what is what.

Fertility - Best ways to improve fertility is to reduce cost of living and reduce school stresses for the kids. This means that the govt will need to make less on new flats so that couple will pay less or can afford a larger flat to support a larger family. In terms of school stress, parents + school + ministry should work in a concerted effort to reduce school stress.

Lack of drive - We need as a group to improve the attitude of our kids. We have failed as parents in many regards to build resilience and character in our kids. We cannot outsource to maids or grandparents. We need to have less fuzzy love and more tough love in my shameless opinion.

Immigrations - Earlier immigrants tend to be closer to those already ashore in terms of value and culture. In present context, the cultural gaps between the citizens and the new residents are larger even between groups that have the same ancestry. One difference between Singapore Chinese and Mainland Chinese is that the latter experienced the Cultural Revolution that shaped their outlook. The Indians in Singapore are mostly Tamils whilst many new comers are Northeners and even in India can be quite contrasting. We are shaped by different experiences and subcultures. How to gel is a puzzle that has to be resolved. Finally, I think whether you are a Singapore citizen, New Citizen, PR or economic residents...none should be treated as resources to be milked.

[cscs1956]

Why ?

We do not have to talk very far. Just need to look at SQ then you will know how many pilots are FT!

[zilchster]

I think the attitudes/values of businesses and Singaporeans should change before policies can change.

Businesses want the easier way out - so of course they want cheap labor. Singaporeans want cheap things. Businesses want to maximize profits. So this would always be an ongoing vicious cycle.

And of course citizens should learn to live within their means. It's not that money no enough, it's because you hanker/covet things like Private Housing, car, lots of cash, to travel comfortably overseas many times a year. So...it doesn't matter what political party is in control. If these attitudes don't change, it will forever be the same.

And the middle class don't benefit from the economic growth because the money go back mostly to the affluence/MNCs etc. So should be tax the rich more then?

Let's say we want to move from this cheap labor economy. How many Singaporeans are willing to see higher costs with like a slow economic growth?

The captains of the ship have sown the bad seeds. But as Singaporeans/businessmen, be honest, are you willing to see higher costs, slow economic growth etc? Do you want lesser money or more money?

[9V-JKL]

If anyone wants to download that whitepaper.... http://202.157.171.46/whitepaper/dow...hite-paper.pdf