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  • 350 Ver 787

    Including the purchase price, there's little difference between 350 and 787 both have versions which equal each others performance . I guess SQ planers looked at both and decided to get a few of each in order to make their preference later.

  • #2
    Interesting thoughts you have.

    Perhaps you can share with us what the purchase prices are as I do not know.

    Beyond aircraft performance (I'm presuming you are comparing the 78J to the 350 regional); there are some many other factors that airlines make before buying a plane or plane type... availability is one, flight crew cost, maintenance cost.

    Even performance between the 2 has some differences. A 1-2% difference in dollar value is huge to airlines.
    Some examples of the differences:
    The 350 engine weighs 2.3T more than the 78J.
    A derated 350 regional's range is down to 5,900nm vs 6,400nm for the 78J
    350 has 2.5% more surface area and therefore generates more drag and therefore higher fuel burn.

    Right now, we don't know how many regional 350s SQ will have; we do know that 20 78J in this config is firmed. I suspect it might be a small sub-fleet.

    I think SQ has learnt its lesson from using a de-rating a long haul bird (regional 772) and when they got the A333s, they found the running cost was so much lower that they'll be careful to do it again on the A359, thus the 78J.

    Happy to hear what others think.

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    • #3
      Ordering the 78J was an afterthought, but will prove to be a principled, economic decision, just like leasing the A333s was. Much less sure about having such a thing as an A350R, right answer might have been none.

      Comment


      • #4
        You're right that there's no official A350 Regional.

        But there will be a 250T A350 with 75,000lb thrust which SQ is getting for regional ops and configured as such. This puts it almost the same as the 78J (254T, 76,000lb thrust).

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by 9V-JKL View Post
          Interesting thoughts you have.

          Perhaps you can share with us what the purchase prices are as I do not know.

          Beyond aircraft performance (I'm presuming you are comparing the 78J to the 350 regional); there are some many other factors that airlines make before buying a plane or plane type... availability is one, flight crew cost, maintenance cost.

          Even performance between the 2 has some differences. A 1-2% difference in dollar value is huge to airlines.
          Some examples of the differences:
          The 350 engine weighs 2.3T more than the 78J.
          A derated 350 regional's range is down to 5,900nm vs 6,400nm for the 78J
          350 has 2.5% more surface area and therefore generates more drag and therefore higher fuel burn.

          Right now, we don't know how many regional 350s SQ will have; we do know that 20 78J in this config is firmed. I suspect it might be a small sub-fleet.

          I think SQ has learnt its lesson from using a de-rating a long haul bird (regional 772) and when they got the A333s, they found the running cost was so much lower that they'll be careful to do it again on the A359, thus the 78J.

          Happy to hear what others think.

          Very interesting perspective, 9V-JKL! I think you've captured quite a few relevant points.

          I personally think SQ took on the de-rated 772s knowing of its slightly higher operational costs, but had hoped to reap on overall cost savings through fleet commonality.

          In the mid to late 1990s, when SQ ordered and took delivery of their 777 'Jubilees', perhaps the management had envisioned an all-Boeing fleet of Boeing 744s and Boeing 777s. This led them to rid the fleet of A343s, with the A310s set to retire as well.

          Plans changed when they were offered the novelty of being the first to fly the A380 and the ability to fly non-stop to LAX and EWR with the A345s.

          Also, due to the dramatic rise in oil prices, SQ realised flying the Boeing 747s were no longer sustainable in the long run and were also facing an ageing fleet of 777s. With A380s already on order to replace the 744s, A359s and 789s were ordered to replace the 772s in the fleet, with the A359s meant for long-haul operations and the 789s for short to medium-haul operations.

          Seeing that they have similar efficiency, think it would make sense to use the A359s for long-haul because of its longer range and perhaps wider-body as compared to the 789s. It was also long rumoured that SQ had executed this to appease both manufacturing giants. Correct me if I'm wrong!

          As the 787 programme was delayed and with Airbus perhaps offering a very attractive deal for SQ to take on leased A333s as compensation for the A380 problems, they accepted and planned for the A333s as a short stop-gap measure for the 772s to retire before the 789s came in.

          However, Scoot came about, and the best way in facilitating its rapid foray into the long-haul market as well as its goal of breaking even quickly was for SQ to transfer their Dreamliner orders to them, which they duly converted to a good mixture of 788s and 789s.

          As a result, SQ was left with A359s on order (besides the 77Ws and A380 of course) and with no viable aircraft available in the market to replace the leased A333s, decided to turn to Airbus to increase their fleet of A359s.

          Boeing then came up with the 78J, which proved greater economic sense for SQ to operate in the short to medium-haul sectors due to its lower operating cost per seat.

          With a large number of A359s already on order, SQ will either have to cancel several aircrafts, which destroys goodwill or choose to deploy the remaining aircraft elsewhere.

          I believe the SQ management sees potential of their A359s serving point-to-point destinations such as Dusseldorf, hence the large orders. Also, by operating de-rated A359s for regional routes, it provides them with the ability and flexibility to up-gauge their operations to EU and America in the shortest possible time.

          SQ seems pretty set on its expansion and renewal plans of global operations fleet-wise and we should see A359Rs and 78Js providing a good mix in short to medium-haul operations in the near future. This is just my take on things, feel free to share your thoughts on it!

          Comment


          • #6
            Believed that SIA aircraft purchases strategy will always have aircrafts from the 2 manufacturers ie Boeing and Airbus instead of having from a single manufacturer. This will also ensure that in the uneventful of any aircraft type being grounded for whatever technical or structural purposes in the future, it will still be able to fly at least half of the fleet - ie as an example when the 787s were grounded due to the lithium battery issue. At the same time SIA perhaps can have a better bargaining power in getting better discounts.

            Comment


            • #7
              It appears SQ have about 87 aircraft on order (48 78J + 39 A359) to replace 45 older aircraft (22 A333, 18 772, 5 773). This would indicate very aggressive regional expansion (presuming all arriving aircraft are regional variants).

              I think the more likely scenario is that some of the 78J’s will end up at Scoot, which has 4 789’s remaining on order. The fact that SQ has only ‘confirmed’ delivery of the first 20 frames, and left open the option to convert the remainder to other 787 variants further supports this idea.

              Comment


              • #8
                From what I understand the 787-10 performs better than the A350-900 on shorter regional routes. The A350-900 will be better than the 787-10 on the longer routes. For this reason I don't we will see the 787-10 going to the east coast of Australia or New Zealand.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by flyguy View Post
                  Believed that SIA aircraft purchases strategy will always have aircrafts from the 2 manufacturers ie Boeing and Airbus instead of having from a single manufacturer. This will also ensure that in the uneventful of any aircraft type being grounded for whatever technical or structural purposes in the future, it will still be able to fly at least half of the fleet - ie as an example when the 787s were grounded due to the lithium battery issue. At the same time SIA perhaps can have a better bargaining power in getting better discounts.
                  Yes, agree very much with you on that, particularly with the last point re bargaining. Two research and development teams trying to get your next order is way better than one manufacturer who is of the view they'll get your order no matter what you're offering. SQ definitely use that as a strategy.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I think many factors contribute to choosing for a mixed fleet and I suppose SIA made a good decision.

                    The B787-10 is a beauty to look at. In terms of passenger comfort (especially in Y class), in my opinion the A350 wins hands down. I have flown in both (SIA A350 and KLM B787-9) and the A350 felt definitely less cramped, is less noisier (although marginal difference) and the old fashioned window shades just work better.

                    However, using the B787-10 for medium haul wouldn't be a big issue for Y passengers and I would be happy to fly in it.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      While the B78J may be cheaper to operate than the A359 on regional routes, the math may make sense once capital costs are factored in. SQ probably got a very good deal on its Airbus orders due to the A380 troubles, A350 delays, etc. It (including taking back the unwanted A345s, the A330 leases, etc) probably was all packaged in.

                      Another factor that may influence SQ's decision to operate A359s in regional configuration even with its higher operating costs is the delivery schedule. SQ needs 45-50 regional aircraft; this suggests a 4-5 year delivery cycle if its relies entirely on Boeing. Imagine the outcry in this forum if the SQ/SR/SY series were still operating in 2021.

                      There is also the possibility that when the B77Ws begin exiting the fleet, they are initially replaced by the remaining new A359s on order (maybe with some conversion to A350-1000s), but later by re-rating (and re-furbishing) the regional A359s back to long-haul. Then the entire regional fleet can be operated solely with B78Js, assuming SQ finds them sufficiently reliable, and materially cheaper to operate on shorter flights.

                      This will also coincide with the time when the older A380s begin rolling off, to be replaced by the B779s. Again, these are not 1-to-1 replacements, but I can imagine a time when SQ operates up to 49 B78Js on regional configuration, 60 A359s, 7 A359ULRs, 20 B779s, 5 A380s (SKU-Z), and 8 77Ws (SWU-SNC).

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by 259850 View Post
                        Imagine the outcry in this forum if the SQ/SR/SY series were still operating in 2021.
                        I cringe at this very thought! These birds were good a decade ago but now...

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by 259850 View Post
                          While the B78J may be cheaper to operate than the A359 on regional routes, the math may make sense once capital costs are factored in. SQ probably got a very good deal on its Airbus orders due to the A380 troubles, A350 delays, etc. It (including taking back the unwanted A345s, the A330 leases, etc) probably was all packaged in.

                          Another factor that may influence SQ's decision to operate A359s in regional configuration even with its higher operating costs is the delivery schedule. SQ needs 45-50 regional aircraft; this suggests a 4-5 year delivery cycle if its relies entirely on Boeing. Imagine the outcry in this forum if the SQ/SR/SY series were still operating in 2021.

                          There is also the possibility that when the B77Ws begin exiting the fleet, they are initially replaced by the remaining new A359s on order (maybe with some conversion to A350-1000s), but later by re-rating (and re-furbishing) the regional A359s back to long-haul. Then the entire regional fleet can be operated solely with B78Js, assuming SQ finds them sufficiently reliable, and materially cheaper to operate on shorter flights.

                          This will also coincide with the time when the older A380s begin rolling off, to be replaced by the B779s. Again, these are not 1-to-1 replacements, but I can imagine a time when SQ operates up to 49 B78Js on regional configuration, 60 A359s, 7 A359ULRs, 20 B779s, 5 A380s (SKU-Z), and 8 77Ws (SWU-SNC).
                          Sound rationale. Though I do think we'll see more 779s in the fleet, like how the initial fleet of 19 Boeing 777-300ERs were expanded by another 8. It's also hard to imagine a small subfleet of only 5 A380s.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Jumbojet Lover View Post
                            Sound rationale. Though I do think we'll see more 779s in the fleet, like how the initial fleet of 19 Boeing 777-300ERs were expanded by another 8. It's also hard to imagine a small subfleet of only 5 A380s.
                            I don't disagree. It's just that the last 5 and 8 of the A380s and B77Ws are significantly younger than the rest of the fleet (3 of them yet to be delivered!). So they may have to straggle around a little (4-5 years) longer than their elders! But yes, eventually SQ will need to order more B779s (or whatever new large model in the market then) to replace these 13 frames.
                            Last edited by 259850; 3 April 2018, 01:02 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by SQ22 View Post
                              I cringe at this very thought! These birds were good a decade ago but now...
                              You can start an Occupy TPR movement if it comes to that....

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