How is Thai doing?

[ParadiseLost]

What's the view in Asia on how Thai are doing financially?

I'm one of the many people in the US caught up with Thai cancelling their JFK-BKK service. I was holding a couple of future reservations but then found out via the internet that they'd suspended the service. The bulletin boards are full of people having problems. I ran into the same issues. None of the ticket offices can be contacted as the lines ring busy all of the time - the NY office has a 'we're closed, our regular office hours are 9-5' message up just about anytime I ring.

I did mange to get an email back saying 'we are processing a full refund, please keep your e-ticket numbers until you see a refund credit back to your credit card account'.

Since they cancelled the service back on the 8th they should have had time to work on this.

I presume that they're going to be around long enough to pay out the refunds!

[SQ LPP]

Actually, I am a bit confused. Why refund? I thought that you would be booked on different airlines? Perhaps I am so naive since I have not have any experience like that.

[kelvgoh]

My friend was booked on a SIN-BKK-JFK run in july, and was affected by the cancellations. Thai did not offer to rebook her on another carrier and she had to make her own arrangements.

I don't believe that they have refunded her the ticket, but I will ask her about it when I next see her online. (update: Thai HAVE refunded her ticket)

As for Thai's financial status, you can have a look at their latest financial summary

http://www.set.or.th/set/companyhigh...=en&country=US

I'm no accountant, but as far as I can tell, they're just about keeping afloat. I doubt they will disappear off the face of the earth anytime soon, at least not without some *A growls.

[ParadiseLost]

Thanks for the update. Not seen any money yet although they say that they're working on refunds.

I did have a look at the financials, and there's no immediate smoking gun. However the way that they exited the east coast, and the lack of planning around this is a little concerning. I really do think they've taken the 'phones of the hooks.

In theory, if I hadn't contacted them I still wouldn't know about this. Nothing went out - and mine were etickets with a valid email address on the bookings.

[Kiwi]

Not contacting affected pax is unfortunately all too common amongst airlines. I've had a couple* of bookings lately (on different airlines) that confirm on the website and yet fail to ticket. If I wasn't a cautious traveller checking my itineraries I would have been oblivious to the ticket failures.

* I suspect I have another today

[ParadiseLost]

Just an update (or lack of one)

The Thai 800 number is always engaged, and has been all week.

The New York office, no matter what choice you take (Marketing, Sales, Ticketing) puts you through to Voice Mail. The voice mail informs you that the users mailbox is full.

Something of a crisis here for Thai in the US I think

[matt_will_fix_it]

If you can't get through to the US number, why not try calling the Thai call centre?

BANGKOK (Town Office)
Reservation & Ticketing
Office: THAI AIRWAYS INTERNATIONAL (TICKETING)
Address: LARN LUANG TICKET OFFICE
6 LARNLUANG RD. BANGKOK 10100
THAILAND
Phone: (66-2) 288-7000
Fax: (66-2) 280-1748

Reservation & Ticketing
Office: THAI AIRWAYS INTERNATIONAL (TICKETING)
Address: VIBHAVADI RANGSIT TICKET OFFICE
89 VIBHAVADI RANGSIT ROAD, CHATTUCHAK, BANGKOK 10900
THAILAND
Phone: (66-2) 545-3690-92
Fax: (66-2) 545-3199

Reservation & Ticketing
Office: THAI CONTACT CENTER (RESERVATION)
Address: 6 LARN LUANG ROAD, BANGKOK 10100
THAILAND
Phone: (66-2) 356-1111
Fax: (66-2) 356-2222

Reservation & Ticketing
Office: THAI AIRWAYS INTERNATIONAL (TICKETING)
Address: SILOM TICKET OFFICE
Bangkok Union Insurance Building (BUI)
1st fl. 175-177 Soi Anumanrajchathon 1, Surawong road, Bangkok 10500
THAILAND
Phone: (66-2) 232-8000
Fax: (66-2) 232-8277

[inix]

I don't think we would need to worry too much. Thai is Thailand's only National Airline, not to mention pride and joy, so its pretty hard to let the airline collapse especially when nationalistic sentiment is heavily involved.

I also have a Thai SIN - BKK - AKL segment coming up in Dec so I'm keeping my fingers crossed that everything will be OK.

[sqforever]

I don't think we would need to worry too much. Thai is Thailand's only National Airline, not to mention pride and joy, so its pretty hard to let the airline collapse especially when nationalistic sentiment is heavily involved.

I also have a Thai SIN - BKK - AKL segment coming up in Dec so I'm keeping my fingers crossed that everything will be OK.

True, but looked what happened to Swiss "The Flying Bank" Air back in 2001.

Don't worry, if your flying SIN-BKK-AKL there shouldnt be any problems. But its amazing how Thai has abandoned pax like this and created a mess for themselves. This could have been handled much better.

[inix]

True, but looked what happened to Swiss "The Flying Bank" Air back in 2001.

Don't worry, if your flying SIN-BKK-AKL there shouldnt be any problems. But its amazing how Thai has abandoned pax like this and created a mess for themselves. This could have been handled much better.

Not unduly concerned yet. Heard from my TA that both sectors of the flight is completely full, so I guess there isn't a reason for them to kick me out yet.

[ParadiseLost]

In today's WSJ there's an article (section B1) 'Airlines Cut Long Flights to Save Fuel Costs'. The article leads with a picture of a Thai 340-500. There are some quotes from SQ in the article as well. Actually it's a good piece with some of the economics explained.

I might have dropped a quick note to the airlines editor (her name was in the article) and suggested that next time they're writing a piece on airline service quality in the US, rather than the endless complaints about UAL (deserved) and others they might want to see if Thai have started picking up the telephone again!

[ParadiseLost]

Interestingly contacting the WSJ got a response about did I want to be interviewed for an upcoming article comparing long haul travel on International Carriers with US ones. I accepted and did the call this morning.

I got the feeling that I wasn't the only one to have told her that SQ was without doubt the best airline around (she also questioned me on Cathay).

I said that she should check this board out; I said the worst complaints on SQTalk seemed to be the number of olives in the martinis. By comparison a few minutes on untied.com would reveal postings of a more disturbing nature.

[inix]

Here goes the article..

As the airline industry grapples with record fuel prices, long intercontinental flights are taking a big hit.

Several U.S. carriers are delaying the start of new flights to China and Russia, while overseas airlines are ditching even longer flights.
[photo]
Getty Images
Thai Airways plans to cut flights and sell its Airbus long-haul carriers.

The shift comes despite new airplanes from Airbus and Boeing Co. that can carry hundreds of people for more than 18 hours on routes that previously required at least one stop, such as between Singapore and New York or Dubai and Los Angeles. These direct links save passengers time, and airlines charge 20% more for the convenience of flying nonstop.

But weakening passenger traffic is making flights of more than 12 hours or so particularly vulnerable to fuel prices.

The government in recent days has said it will allow US Airways Group Inc. to postpone by one year its planned launch of a 13-hour daily flight linking Philadelphia and Beijing -- without giving up its right to the route. In May, when US Airways asked for the postponement, it told its employees that fuel increases would raise the cost of running the one daily Beijing flight to more than $90 million, from $50 million when it applied for the route a few months earlier.

The Department of Transportation last week also granted Northwest Airlines Corp. permission to suspend for a year seven weekly all-cargo flights it was operating between the U.S. and Guangzhou, China. UAL Corp.'s United Airlines last week asked the government for permission to postpone the launch of a Washington-Moscow flight by five months, until the end of March. Earlier this year, United won a year's reprieve on its planned launch of San Francisco-Guangzhou flights. These postponed flights wouldn't use the latest globe-spanning aircraft.

On marathon flights of more than 15 hours, the economics can get even more precarious.

The reason long flights are so vulnerable to the mix of high fuel prices and weak airline traffic is a combination of physics and economics.

A passenger on a 15-hour flight uses more fuel for each mile of the trip than someone on an eight-hour trip, but the airfare per mile generally doesn't rise proportionally. When fuel is cheap and traffic strong, airlines can absorb the difference.

A few years ago, airlines hyped marathon flights as the industry's next big thing. Australia's Qantas Airways Ltd. promised "hub-busting" flights that would eliminate annoying stopovers. Boeing and European Aeronautic Defence & Space Co.'s Airbus predicted that the sheer range of their new planes would open lucrative markets.

Instead, the promise remains unfulfilled and super-long flights are a tiny niche. Among the hundreds of intercontinental routes world-wide, barely two dozen are longer than 15 hours.

Thai Airways International recently said it will end its 17-hour Bangkok-New York route, launched in 2005, and reduce Bangkok-Los Angeles flights. As a result, Thai plans to sell its Airbus super-long-haul jetliners.

When fuel is expensive, "the equation doesn't work the same any more," said Montie Brewer, chief executive of ACE Aviation Holdings Inc.'s Air Canada, which flies two extra-long routes.

Raj Nangia, an aeronautical engineer who has analyzed the issue for Britain's Royal Aeronautical Society, says that flying 18 hours in one hop could double the cost of flying the same route with three stops. To fly far, a plane needs lots of fuel onboard, and to carry all that fuel, it needs even more fuel -- just as a car burns more fuel when it is heavily loaded.

"With these flights, what you get is a flying tanker with a few people onboard," said Pierre-Henri Gourgeon, chief executive of Air France-KLM SA, which doesn't fly marathon routes.

Air France-KLM on Monday scaled back planned capacity growth to 2% on its whole network for this winter and next summer from a year earlier because of higher fuel bills, a spokeswoman said. The airline didn't say what its previous target for growth had been.

The airline business faced a similar reality check 35 years ago, when the supersonic Concorde was touted as heralding a new era of ultrafast jetliner travel. The 1973 oil crisis ended that dream and the Concorde was relegated to a niche service that ceased operations in 2003.

Among the first flights airlines dropped in the industry downturn after the Sept. 11, 2001, terror attacks were distant connections with spotty passenger demand, known as "long, thin routes." Those included routes across the Atlantic from smaller markets such as Pittsburgh and Dusseldorf, Germany.

Today, only a handful of distant city pairs generate sufficient high-paying traffic to support direct flights. Qantas shelved its "hub-busting" plan in 2005 and Chief Financial Officer Peter Gregg says that with today's fuel prices the business case is even worse.Today, airline executives say coach passengers are increasingly opting for one-stop routings, which carriers generally price below nonstops to offset the inconvenience. Without sufficient economy-class traffic, most long-haul routes become unprofitable.

"It's a misnomer that you can command a significant premium for nonstop service," said Enda Corneille, corporate affairs director at Ireland's Aer Lingus Group PLC, which just announced plans to drop its 12-hour Dublin-Los Angeles service.

The few super-long flights available illustrate the challenging mix of ingredients required for success: buoyant markets at both ends, preferably with lots of traffic fed through a big carrier's hub.

Singapore Airlines has significant premium traffic on the world's longest scheduled route -- about 18 hours from Singapore to Newark Liberty airport. To make more money on each of those flights, the carrier is replacing the economy-class section with higher-paying business class seats. Even Chief Executive Chew Choon Seng says the route is exceptional. "We have to be very selective in choosing routes so we can recover our costs," he said.

Continental Airlines Inc.'s strong hub at Newark similarly generates rich enough traffic that it can offset the high cost of its 16-hour nonstops to Mumbai and Delhi, says Jim Compton, executive vice president for marketing.

State-owned Qatar Airways and Dubai's Emirates Airlines are bucking the trend and adding long routes. But Emirates President Tim Clark says he won't expand the carrier's fleet of 20 super-long-distance models, even though Emirates is adding dozens of shorter-range jetliners.

As airlines drop ultralong routes, the planes designed to fly them are losing their appeal. During a recent three-year order boom, Boeing sold almost 400 big intercontinental jetliners -- only 40 of which were its new super-long-range 777 model. Airbus sold fewer of its competing A340 model.

Airbus's vice president for market research, Laurent Rouaud, said demand will continue for very long flights. But he concedes: "Some of the routes that were economical when fuel was $2.50 or $3 a gallon might not be economical at $4."

Boeing's marketing vice president, Randy Tinseth, said that despite the high price of fuel, nonstop flights are efficient. They reduce the wear on a plane that comes with each landing and time lost when it is on the ground. And since takeoffs and landings use lots of fuel, "the fundamental fuel savings of the direct service are still rather compelling," he said.

For Thai Airways, the economics didn't add up anyway. Its nonstop flights from Bangkok to New York were 80% full, on average. But Chief Executive Apinan Sumanaseni said fuel prices now mean the route would lose money, even with every seat sold. To cover spiraling costs, he said, the flights would need to run at an impossible 120% of capacity.

[N_Architect]

Here goes the article..

interesting

[inix]

Interestingly contacting the WSJ got a response about did I want to be interviewed for an upcoming article comparing long haul travel on International Carriers with US ones. I accepted and did the call this morning.

I got the feeling that I wasn't the only one to have told her that SQ was without doubt the best airline around (she also questioned me on Cathay).

I said that she should check this board out; I said the worst complaints on SQTalk seemed to be the number of olives in the martinis. By comparison a few minutes on untied.com would reveal postings of a more disturbing nature.

Keep us informed about the article.. I think we would be very interested...